1 Onderwerp door Demonic Laatst bewerkt door Demonic (2011-02-03 08:24:56)

  • Demonic
  • Demonic
  • Winner of Speed v1
  • Offline
  • Van: -452,675
  • Geregistreerd: 2009-11-17
  • Berichten: 643

Onderwerp: Mod player feedback part II

Just to let you all know what's going on....


Read from bottom to top for correct timestamp:

Start anonymous player log
---------------------------------------
xxxxx has been attacked by someone. 1 runes were stolen.    03.02.2011 08:21   
You have destructed your Barrack.    03.02.2011 08:21   
xxxx has send 33 earth runes, 60 fire runes, 30 water runes and 34 wind runes to his fellow cheater    03.02.2011 07:36   
You have upgraded your Castle.
-----------------------------------------
End anonymous player log


Just a small explanation of what happens in the game mechanics.
Honor is calculated at launchtime, so when "someone" launched he would not lose any honor because xxxxxx had way more runes then him.
He had 9 battle slots when the attack was launched, 8 of them were filled by the attacker.

During the march time xxxxxx came online, noticed the attacks coming, sent his 153 runes to his friend/cheating ffer and went offline again.

When the attack started the result if "someone" won by 100% would be that "someone" would win 10% of the total amount of runes in his village....
I don't know how much runes there actually were, all i know is that there should be 153 more.
In this case that means that the potential winnings from this battle were lowered by 15 runes.

His battle slots went down from 9 to just 5, causing the actual battle to only use 7 slots sad
(next time someone attacks a player who's known to do this make sure you don't fill all slots)
This means one of the regiments of "someone" didn't actually fight.
(there are some things not clear about this, we're looking into it)

The end result is what counts and that's like this:
Someone got a fair victory, he won by 73% wich should result in 7.3% of the total runes in the village if that player played fair.
The amount of winnings that were decline to someone is 153/7.3= 21 runes

A second bad thing that happens is that somehow the amount of runes calculated during battles goes wrong as well, "someone" won just 1 rune, this is way to low considering there are way more runes then 10 pieces in the village that got attacked.

Anyhow...
I hope this shines a small light on how the cheaters/abusers play and why rune transfers (apart from fair trades, 1 rune vs 1 rune) should be very limited and only allowed to help clanmates who lost runes in battle.

I also wish to use this posting as a last call to those who actually are using this way to play the game.
As you can see you are really messing up the game, the way the game is ment to be played and worst of all you create a very bad feeling with the other players you're playing with.
We're all here to enjoy this game, play it fair and descent, it's no fun to win by cheating, it's even less fun to lose by cheaters... stop the abuse please.

And one more note, one of these days there will be rules again, probably something simmilar to the old rules, may even be the old rules as announced some time ago.
When those rules are in effect again the chances are very likely anyone who has been using this "sending of runes" to his/her favour will get reset.
Yes, for actions in the past (we're speaking future times here)personally,  i'm all in favour for that and i would love to personally reset you myself!  wink That's just me talking ofcourse!

Final words, have a good game please!

::edited to fix grammar::

Your village is 38100% bigger than the defending village. You will probably lose 90 honour by attacking this village. If someone of your clan attacked this village earlier, every clan member will lose honour.

2 Reactie door Demonic

  • Demonic
  • Demonic
  • Winner of Speed v1
  • Offline
  • Van: -452,675
  • Geregistreerd: 2009-11-17
  • Berichten: 643

Re: Mod player feedback part II

Since some players were shocked after reading this topic they mailed me if i was not mistaking 153 runes for 15 or 13 runes.
Let me asure you i'm not mistaking, it's 100's of runes as you can see in the image included.

http://i1132.photobucket.com/albums/m572/dolumar/dolumar-abuse.jpg

Your village is 38100% bigger than the defending village. You will probably lose 90 honour by attacking this village. If someone of your clan attacked this village earlier, every clan member will lose honour.

3 Reactie door Mel

  • Mel
  • Mel
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Van: USA
  • Geregistreerd: 2010-08-02
  • Berichten: 77

Re: Mod player feedback part II

Demo,
I like the idea of this thread in forum. Giving real (anonymous) examples of the problems that our mods are finding in player logs. A walk of shame for the offender and an eye opener for those that might get screwed because of a transfer like this one.  Thanks for posting.

Chaos thinks I'm God

4 Reactie door Wolfieke

  • Geregistreerd: 2010-03-15
  • Berichten: 317

Re: Mod player feedback part II

I agree cheating should be punished. ALL cheating. Asap.

Guess who's back big_smile
Some dog in a movie: play?

5 Reactie door Wolfieke

  • Geregistreerd: 2010-03-15
  • Berichten: 317

Re: Mod player feedback part II

A question on this example, since sending away runes before an attack could give players honorlose this was chanced by calculating honor when the attacker sends out his troops. Can this be done for the entire attack? It would stop the bugs like for example slots desapering. Things like retraining troops, summining wizards and seeing destroyed buildings in the attacked village should only be possible after the attack. These bugs have not only been showing up when the system is being abused.

Guess who's back big_smile
Some dog in a movie: play?

6 Reactie door Wolfieke

  • Geregistreerd: 2010-03-15
  • Berichten: 317

Re: Mod player feedback part II

Another question: Someone got only 1 rune. Wasn't the amount off runes both have at the time off the attack calculated somewhere? What I mean is if you win on a smaller village without honorlose (exp: he attacked you), you get less runes then when you win by the same % on a village off similar size. You get more runes when you win with the same % on a bigger village. Since the village who was attacked send his runes away, he became a smaller village.

Guess who's back big_smile
Some dog in a movie: play?

7 Reactie door Wolfieke

  • Geregistreerd: 2010-03-15
  • Berichten: 317

Re: Mod player feedback part II

Another question: If sending away runes before a batlle is unfair because the attaker wins less (I still want to point out when a village is under attack people start running and screaming, send other people away with their possesions to try and keep there possesions safe.  War isn't fair), is it fair to trade before battle?
I can trade all my resources for iron, trade that iron for weapons and the attaker is unable to get resources. After the battle I trade back and have everything back as before the attack or keep it the way it is if I like the trade. Is this not the same abuse?
Is it fair I can  trade all not used  waterrunes for earthrunes? I think we all agree waterrunes are worth more then earthrunes (correct me if I'm wrong) and even if/when the strength of gual are lowered they are still faster.

Guess who's back big_smile
Some dog in a movie: play?

8 Reactie door Demonic

  • Demonic
  • Demonic
  • Winner of Speed v1
  • Offline
  • Van: -452,675
  • Geregistreerd: 2009-11-17
  • Berichten: 643

Re: Mod player feedback part II

Wolfie, can you please edit your previous message instead of posting a new one?
I'll try to answer your questions later when i've got some more time.
(i'll edit this message wink )

Your village is 38100% bigger than the defending village. You will probably lose 90 honour by attacking this village. If someone of your clan attacked this village earlier, every clan member will lose honour.

9 Reactie door Wolfieke

  • Geregistreerd: 2010-03-15
  • Berichten: 317

Re: Mod player feedback part II

Demonic schreef:

Wolfie, can you please edit your previous message instead of posting a new one?
I'll try to answer your questions later when i've got some more time.
(i'll edit this message wink )


Other players, developers and mods read this forum in the time between and/or post comments, they don't see edits unless they go back threw the entire topic and see when it was edited and when the where on last. Edits don't show up in new messages. These questions are not only questions for you, but for everyone willing to read them. This is an open discussion.

Guess who's back big_smile
Some dog in a movie: play?

10 Reactie door Demonic Laatst bewerkt door Demonic (2011-02-03 16:15:23)

  • Demonic
  • Demonic
  • Winner of Speed v1
  • Offline
  • Van: -452,675
  • Geregistreerd: 2009-11-17
  • Berichten: 643

Re: Mod player feedback part II

Yes it is, but posting 4 times in a row and adding single messages each time is against common forum use, i don't really mind but it just makes more sense saying/writing it all in one.

Please do so.

Edited to add that it's perfectly okay to add new messages when others replied, it just does not make sense to reply to yourself.

Your village is 38100% bigger than the defending village. You will probably lose 90 honour by attacking this village. If someone of your clan attacked this village earlier, every clan member will lose honour.

11 Reactie door Wolfieke Laatst bewerkt door Wolfieke (2011-02-03 17:31:28)

  • Geregistreerd: 2010-03-15
  • Berichten: 317

Re: Mod player feedback part II

One more question, directed to demonic and everybody keeping the peace on the game.
Is it possible if/when making rules to make it clear what is cheating and what isn't, what is bug abuse and what isn't? So we don't get discussion, fights and so on?

Like in this example:
Sending runes away when you have an incoming attack which will lower your losses and the winnings off the attacker is considert abuse.
Trading is not considerd abuse.

Then you have players asking: Am I still allowed to send runes or res to a smaller player?
If the answer is yes, as long as that smaller player doesn't send them back.

Make it clear in the rules:

Abuse: Sending runes away before an attack
Not abuse: trading
Not abuse: Sending runes to a smaller player
That player can't send them back anyway, that would be pushing a player, another rule.

Then you have the question: can players send runes (not trading) and res to players off the same size and can they do that when having an attack coming. Where is the line between legal and abuse?

Edit that answer into the rulesand the next answer on the next question and so on.
When you make it clear like that, there is no room for discussion. There is no room for players to call each other cheaters and have fights about that. There is no room to question the mod and have fights about that.

Another example: If we can't help 2 players on the same ip, can we atleast know who is on the same ip or change that rule so no innocent players are being punished, which lead to discussions and fights again?

Guess who's back big_smile
Some dog in a movie: play?

12 Reactie door Jerico

  • Geregistreerd: 2009-11-17
  • Berichten: 131

Re: Mod player feedback part II

shit, he's onto me...

13 Reactie door Mel

  • Mel
  • Mel
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Van: USA
  • Geregistreerd: 2010-08-02
  • Berichten: 77

Re: Mod player feedback part II

Maybe we should make it that once an attack has been launched, all market transactions are impossible until the troops of the attacker are returning home. If the "send resources to other village" button is pushed during this time it can state something like "Unable to trade during an impending attack. tongue ...Please prepare for battle" 

People can send resources, such as food or iron to the defending village during this time to help out a clanmate who may need to train a few more troops and make a few more weapons prior to the arrival, but the defending village cannot send anything back until after the attack is over. This would not interfere with a village getting resources (even during a stream of fakes) but it would keep them from sending away items that would lessen the attackers possible rewards. 

If a trade needs to be made because the clanmate that helped was bigger, it can still be made several hours afterwards, once the attack is done. I am sure the mods will see the time stamps are only hours apart and not days apart.  This seems like a reasonable fix for this type of abuse and there would be no need change any calculations to factor in the available runes at the end. And slots wouldn't disappear because of any rune transfers either.

Wolfieke schreef:

Another question: If sending away runes before a batlle is unfair because the attaker wins less (I still want to point out when a village is under attack people start running and screaming, send other people away with their possesions to try and keep there possesions safe.  War isn't fair), is it fair to trade before battle?\nI can trade all my resources for iron, trade that iron for weapons and the attaker is unable to get resources. After the battle I trade back and have everything back as before the attack or keep it the way it is if I like the trade. Is this not the same abuse?\nIs it fair I can  trade all not used  waterrunes for earthrunes? I think we all agree waterrunes are worth more then earthrunes (correct me if I'm wrong) and even if/when the strength of gual are lowered they are still faster.

for this question... I think that prior to an attack would just be trading because you have not been attacked yet and really dont know that an attack is coming normally,(unless you have a spy that forewarns you of something, which would be rare)
Still - prior to an attack is just trading and shouldn't be seen as a violation or abuse in my opinion. Trading resources for iron, iron for weapons, and then reversing the whole process sounds time consuming but perfectly legit as far as the current trade rules go.  Water runes could not be swapped for earth runes once the attack is launched if the market was disabled, but to do it prior to, or after should be no big deal.

Chaos thinks I'm God

14 Reactie door Demonic

  • Demonic
  • Demonic
  • Winner of Speed v1
  • Offline
  • Van: -452,675
  • Geregistreerd: 2009-11-17
  • Berichten: 643

Re: Mod player feedback part II

I like the idea of coupling honor (calculated at launch) with the amount of battle slots and the amount of possible runes that can be won.
this has been discussed before but has not been implemented since there were loads of improvements that needed to be looked at.

As it is now the game mechanics calculate number of runes lost, amount of troops lost and destroyed buildings at the start of the battle.
Perhaps a fix can be made so these calculations won't go into effect untill after the battle is over.
I'm sure Daed can and will have a look at it.
I also would like to add that when troops are fighting in a village (defending in this case) they should not be able to march and attack another village untill the battle has ended.

In the example posted in the OT someone won 1 rune, this has to do with village size as well ofcourse, the original calculation for amount of runes won calculates the sizes of the 2 villages (amount of runes) and the percentage victory. This formula will result in 10% of the total runes in the attacked village when won with 100%, getting a 70% victory will get you 7% of the total amount of runes.
This is the case when the attacked village has the same amount or a larger amount of runes, if the attacked village is smaller it's less, if the attacked village is 70% of the attacker then the total amount that can be won at 100% victory is only 70% and so on.

I would think that sending away runes and resources to a lower ranked player is no problem at all, just sending them away in this amount is a bad thing. Helping a smaller player grow is never a problem.
If a player had 100 spare runes, was under attack and sent 10 runes to a smaller player to help him out i would not call that abuse or cheating.
If the player that was under attack sent away 100 runes i would. It's not hard to think of what's logic and what is not... the whole idea is that nobody gets any advantages over anyone else.
I still think the original rules that were enforced since the start of this server manage all these problems pretty well. Even trading would not ruin the battle slots or the amount of runes that were won/stolen. Ofcourse there are people who think water runes are worth more... they will soon start to think otherwise. To my knowledge there's a lot of players buying runes, lot's of those are not water. Actually, most of those are not.

Make it clear in the rules:
Abuse: Sending runes away before an attack
Not abuse: trading
Not abuse: Sending runes to a smaller player
That player can't send them back anyway, that would be pushing a player, another rule.

Yes, you summoned it correct, these were the original rules.
the question what happens when 2 players are exactly the same size and abuse their advantage to send runes to eachother to avoid rune loss, honor loss, lower scout costs or whatever can be easily answered.
Anything that you can do that gives you an advantage over any other player is not allowed, illegal, bannable offense. Anyways, these cases will be reviewed by the mod team and then a decision will be made.


Edit that answer into the rulesand the next answer on the next question and so on.
When you make it clear like that, there is no room for discussion. There is no room for players to call each other cheaters and have fights about that. There is no room to question the mod and have fights about that.

I think all the info you wanted is right here: http://en.forum.dolumar.com/topic/468/n … tional-ii/
We're working on some new rules wich will stop all discussion about bans, fights in chat, forum and more, this will be revealed the next few days/weeks/months/years (soon i hope)

There is no rule 2 players on the same ip can not be helped by their clanmates or ingame friends, the rule we have been using since stable 1 was that players on the same ip can not have any contact with eachother, they can not trade or attack or support eachother, any transfer (troops, runes or resources) will result in a reset. The players that use the same ip are aware of this.

Sending away resources to convert them into weapons and armour is no problem at this moment, we're never encountered any such thing so we won't make any rules against this at the moment, if we notice that this system is being abused the mod team might decide to add rules to prevent this from bringing inbalance to the game.

Taz, i like that thought but it's impossible to work with.
When you're taking serious attacks (for instance clan war) you want to be able to build your village, trade and so on.
Someone launching an attack from 1000L away could cripple that player for weeks... that's not supposed to happen.

One thing that has crossed my mind is to limit the amount of runes that can be send away (trade or gift) say 10% of the total amount of runes. Combined with previous trading rules this would prevent all kinds of abuse i think.

Your village is 38100% bigger than the defending village. You will probably lose 90 honour by attacking this village. If someone of your clan attacked this village earlier, every clan member will lose honour.
  • Geregistreerd: 2010-12-03
  • Berichten: 14

Re: Mod player feedback part II

Just expose a bug and get reset already

16 Reactie door Wolfieke Laatst bewerkt door Wolfieke (2011-02-04 05:00:10)

  • Geregistreerd: 2010-03-15
  • Berichten: 317

Re: Mod player feedback part II

Now this is better big_smile
As for the cheaters now, Daed is admin on stable 2, he had time to reset somebody on stable 1 (a dead server about to reset I think), If this is only 2 players out off control he might have time for them too.

Demonic I have been to your link and see lots off questions, somewhere in the many comments are some answers, you done a great job explaining things here. I would like to ask again to make the rules and (non) abuses clearer in on pleace so it is easy for us players to go back and read it again. The same for answering questions in game. Private chat disapears, going back in or messages can be hell to. Also when a player acuses another player off cheating that player can say, it's clear in the rules it's not abuse. In the time I have been on this game I have seen many players quit because off this discussion (fight) and the many bugs in the game keep allowing this to happen.

Another example: Is it ok to have a market lvl 1 just so you can trade because now it overflows anyway.

Guess who's back big_smile
Some dog in a movie: play?

17 Reactie door Pixel

  • Geregistreerd: 2010-08-16
  • Berichten: 54

Re: Mod player feedback part II

just to make it easier for the mods an idea:
is it possible when trading runes u need 1 for 1, to make an trade box where both players need to put in their runes and push accept, so this way you cant send runes in big amounts.

so no mods have to look at it, saves time and they can use it for more pressing matters.

Can't you see that tiny black dot????